I feel after watching "For the Bible Tells Me So" that there is indeed a stigma towards homosexuals in our country, and possibly the world. This article on the subject of a 20 year study brings to light the fact that, "Good parenting makes for healthier children, regardless of your sexual orientation. Whether you're gay, straight or lesbian, good parenting is good parenting."
It was pleasantly surprising to see that families can “come around,” and that some are very supporting of their children immediately after they come out. I doubt that it goes so well for most, unfortunately.
I think that Mrs. Poteat (family from NC whose daughter is a lesbian) expressed a major problem in the way that many people look at the LGBT community – completely in terms of their sexual behavior. With these biases, until you know a person for a person, it is common to associate that person only with what you imagine (why???) as the sexual activities that person participates in.
I find it odd that parents who believe homosexuality is a choice hope that their boys won’t “turn out” homosexual. Shouldn’t they say, “I hope my son doesn’t choose to be a homosexual”?
I have often wondered why homosexuality and abortion have become the target issues for many Christian churches/groups. I think it is mainly because these issues do not require self-reflection. When the finger is always pointed out, it is difficult to identify and battle the demons within. I have attended many Christian services (mainly non-denominational, Baptist, and Methodist) and have never heard the preacher take a strong stand against racism or stress the importance of education and health care for all or the eradication of poverty. However, I cannot count the times that homosexuality and abortion have been brought up.
Someone in the video stated that the Bible is a weapon. I prefer to see it (and all religions) as a tool – I just hope they are being used for more good than evil.
These 9 videos provided a carefully crafted one sided presentation of the arguments associated with God’s direction for man with regard to homosexuality. A few snipets were provided for why conservative theologians, ministers and Christians believe that the Bible declares homosexual behavior sinful. I have provided a few thoughts below; some better developed than others, but in no way comprehensive, nor held together in a regular flow. There isn’t time or space on a blog site. Complete texts and volumes have been written over the years. This is a complex issue and connected with several issues that are central to the church.
In many ways, one of the core issues at stake in the argument is whether the Bible is the inspired word of God or not. The Greek word that has been translated into English as inspired in I Timothy literally means “God-breathed.” The Senior Priest in the Falls Church Episcopal Church wrote a letter to the editor in the Washington Post outlining that as the key issue in the ongoing fight. The ordination of an actively practicing Homosexual was the final straw in a long standing battle over the authority of the scriptures, which has led to many Episcopal churches to separate themselves from the authority of the American Episcopal church to the Anglican church of Nigeria.
It seems to me that part of the vitriol from some members of the “church” relates to the way in which the public policy fight is taking place, to include in schools where children are taught sexual values which are contrary to a parent’s values. At times this has been accomplished in clandestine ways that raise anger in parents. In a related way, a legal guardian has to approve medical treatments for minors, yet there is this boundary set up that allows others to help a child get an abortion, which is a fairly significant procedure, after which several have died of various complications; it would seem that the person authorizing treatment ought to be held responsible for the decision. Bottom Line - There is a cultural war taking place in America and homosexuality is one of many issues. Rabbi Daniel Lapin, an Orthodox rabbi, outlines the ongoing cultural war quite effectively in his book, America’s Real War.
There has been excessive hatred spewed from many on each side of the issue, frequently based on second hand information. This hatred toward those practicing homosexuality is inappropriate for Christians, although I would argue some of the anger is appropriate (be angry but sin not).
Several times in the tape they made reference to homosexuality only being spoken out against in 6 places in the Bible. Interestingly, one of the theologians in speaking about the reason certain texts don’t exactly mean that God abhors homosexuality is that the author was speaking out against the ways of the Greeks and Romans, because homosexuality wasn’t practiced by Jews. As I thought about that statement, it seems to me that Jewish people must have taken God’s commands against it pretty seriously if essentially wasn’t found. In performing an electronic search of the Bible and my other reference books I found 7 different references (not counting Gen 2:24). It should be noted, that these are not isolated verses, but rather included as parts of significant passages. As an aside, there are several other sexual sins that the Bible cites. All sexual intercourse outside the bounds of a man and a woman in a marriage relationship is considered sinful. This has been ignored in the argument – I don’t know why; there is much said in the Bible about avoiding it. Sexual misconduct by many leaders within the church has compromised the voice of in some cases with regard to sexual sin. Additionally, according to scriptures all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. None can achieve reconciliation with God based on what we do.
There is research in the area regarding nature versus nurture. In general, it appears that the current view based on work done with twins points to born that way. Perhaps one day they will find a gene(s) that when present predicts with 100% confidence homosexuality; I wonder. I also noted with interest how lightly a psychologist discounted the lives of individuals who had changed from homosexual to heterosexual. She stated that they were suppressing their real nature. I know a few individuals who have changed their behavior. I cannot look into a their hearts , however, and know whether they have changed deep down inside or not. I am skeptical that a psychologist can look into the spirit and soul either. Science is based on research that looks at the physical world – it has no way to look at the spiritual world and is therefore blind to any changes that take place within the spirit of a person. Additionally, using their definition of change, why would we ever try to cure an alcoholic, since they will always be susceptible to a return to alcoholism?
Even the issue of marriage is a complex one. There are three dates associated with my wedding; this came up during the adoption of my daughter. The first date was the wedding itself, the second was the date the license was filed and the third is the date it was recorded. In Soviet based countries that final date is the official date, because it reflects when the Government officially recognizes the relationship. On the other hand in America, the first date is the official date. The Government vests its authority in Rabbis, Priests, Pastors, etc. so that they the State and represent God in their religious capacity. I reflected on this issue, because it impacts the view of homosexual marriage. On the one hand there are certain issues associated with being married, property ownership, hospital visitation, and health insurance that have little to do with religion and are more based on civil rights as a citizen. There are other issues related to using a church or other religious based facility, recognition by the church etc. which are religious issues. In America, these get morphed into something that threatens churches in major ways. For instance, if approved as law, would it be a hate crime to declare homosexuality a sin from the pulpit? The Biblical view for marriage is first set forth in the book of Genesis, before the fall of mankind, “24 For this cause a man shall leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave to his wife; and they shall become one flesh. (NASB Genesis 2:24)”
I appreciated the look into the struggles of families associated with having a family member who is homosexual. There are so many different facets.
I enjoyed reading everyone's posts, but rather than respond I would like to put forth a different angle. I have frequently been confused by the position taken by a large portion of the gay community that sexuality is not a choice and therefore they should be given full rights and accepted in communities. I can see that is in reaction to many (mostly religious people) who say it is a choice and we can fix you. However I think that this "It's not a choice" line of argument is at best a stepping stone for the gay community. I would rather them say "We have a right to be who we are."
The difficulty with the choice line of argument is that it relies upon science to hold it up. What happens when/if science starts leaning in the other direction. What is the gay community to do - work to suppress that science? What if science says that its definitely not a choice but we have finally figured out how to fix it. There would be tremendous pressure upon gays to undergo this "treatment".
I think that it is well accepted medical knowledge that the size of a woman's breasts is not her choice. Yet there are still tremendous messages that that is an inferior status for a woman, and that she can go under the knife (often with serious health consequences) to fix the problem.
Issues of our characteristics and how they arise is complex. I did some research into left handedness a few years back and found that many people may be left handed for different reasons. For example there appears to be a strong genetic component in the general public but this does not hold true with fraternal and identical twins. In twins there is a higher rate of one of them being left handed. In these cases, the position in the womb is thought to be responsible for the handedness.
The comparison of gayness to handedness is interesting. When I entered first grade, the teachers had just stopped trying to change left handers. Some of my friends have not been so lucky and they had their left hand tied behind their back (usually in Catholic schools). Because religion is a hobby of sorts for me, I have spoken to people of many faiths with many strong positions. I have spoken to literalists of all three monotheistic religions who have stated that the left hand is the hand of the devil and that the right hand is the hand of God.
So my point is this. Why don't we approach issues of variation in humans -size, skin tone, religion, ethnicity, intelligences and sexuality- from the perspective of human rights. Don't all humans have some rights - regardless of the reason for their variation - whether it be a product of creation, evolution, en utero environment, genetics, childhood experiences or choice? Can't we see the variation in humans (and in the larger portion of nature) as a beautiful reflection of a creator, of evolution, of nature itself, or as simply a mystery - or some combination of those.
I would like to share a story from my personal life - as I think it fits into this discussion/video experience.
I grew up in a small town, and my mom decided to take me to an even smaller community to attend middle school. The school was a K-8, and my grade level had a total of 30 students. Needless to say, everyone knew everyone else's business. Two teachers are this school were partners. They had been together for many years and had adopted two girls together. One of the women was my 7th grade teacher, and her partner was my softball coach for 6 years. They really cared about their students and they were two of the best teachers I ever had. My mom was close friends with them as I was attending that school. Around that same time frame, I overheard my mom talking to someone about how the possibility of gay rights/marriage would ruin marriage, society (etc.). My first thought was how could she say that knowing that her friends were gay? It seems that there was a huge disconnect for her in seeing two lesbians, her close friends -- and hearing about the gay rights movements in the media.
I wonder how many others are like this?
Also, I never understand why it matters what the bible says about anything. It's not a book I believe in, so why should I follow it's rules? (just throwing that out there, since much discussion is bible-based).
Here's my reaction: I thoroughly enjoyed this documentary. It was really moving, and I'm glad that people are finally talking about it, logically, spriritually, etc. My stance: as a believer of God, I think of Him as the ultimate judge--not myself. Therefore, I place all judgments in His hands. I love everyone, and I feel that I can truly vouch for this through my daily example and conversations with all people (different skin color, sexual orientation, etc.). I think that if I were to take on that responsibility as "judge," life would be incredibly tense. Ick! I'm glad I can just live and love!
Given that the Old and New Testaments were written over many hundreds of years, in languages that we do not fully understand today, I find it difficult to believe that the Bible has survived to this day intact and completely understood. Instead, I believe that translation errors, transcription errors, insertions, deletions, doctrinal fillers, and external pressure have resulted in a Bible that is much different today than the original word. Also, given that the Church had a heavy hand in choosing which writings were included after the Torah, and which writings were considered, but not chosen, it is apparent that the hand of man has been heavy in constructing the Bible we know today.
So for me (and for me only) I believe the Bible when it says God is love and also says that God's love is unconditional. In addition, I find the words of Jesus very compelling when he stated (Matthew 22:38) that the first and greatest commandment is to "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul and all your mind" and the second is like unto it: "Love thy neighbor as thyself". Jesus goes on to say that the entire law and all the demands of the prophets are based on these two commandments.
As such, I find that my own individual interpretation of the Bible revolves around these ideas of love. Where the Bible diverges from these ideas, I am suspicious as to the origin of the writings.
So for me, I work very hard to follow those two commandments - and reject the notion that the Bible commands us to discriminate against and/or judge homosexuals.
On the video:
I appreciated that the video offers a different and more accepting take on homosexuality than what is typically presented.
I didn't know where to post this link... so I'm doing it here to further our discussion of Obama and the underlying tones of racism that exist... the article is titled: Why Obama doesn't dare become 'the angry black man': http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/06/08/rage.obama/index.html .
Interesting site: Chief Arvol Looking Horse sends out a universal prayer for healing the Gulf oil spill.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.lawoftime.org/gulf-oil-spill-prayer.html
I just read this article on USA Today....
ReplyDeletehttp://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2010-06-11-lesbians-children_N.htm
I feel after watching "For the Bible Tells Me So" that there is indeed a stigma towards homosexuals in our country, and possibly the world. This article on the subject of a 20 year study brings to light the fact that, "Good parenting makes for healthier children, regardless of your sexual orientation. Whether you're gay, straight or lesbian, good parenting is good parenting."
It was pleasantly surprising to see that families can “come around,” and that some are very supporting of their children immediately after they come out. I doubt that it goes so well for most, unfortunately.
ReplyDeleteI think that Mrs. Poteat (family from NC whose daughter is a lesbian) expressed a major problem in the way that many people look at the LGBT community – completely in terms of their sexual behavior. With these biases, until you know a person for a person, it is common to associate that person only with what you imagine (why???) as the sexual activities that person participates in.
I find it odd that parents who believe homosexuality is a choice hope that their boys won’t “turn out” homosexual. Shouldn’t they say, “I hope my son doesn’t choose to be a homosexual”?
I have often wondered why homosexuality and abortion have become the target issues for many Christian churches/groups. I think it is mainly because these issues do not require self-reflection. When the finger is always pointed out, it is difficult to identify and battle the demons within. I have attended many Christian services (mainly non-denominational, Baptist, and Methodist) and have never heard the preacher take a strong stand against racism or stress the importance of education and health care for all or the eradication of poverty. However, I cannot count the times that homosexuality and abortion have been brought up.
Someone in the video stated that the Bible is a weapon. I prefer to see it (and all religions) as a tool – I just hope they are being used for more good than evil.
Marc Collins said (pt 1)
ReplyDeleteThese 9 videos provided a carefully crafted one sided presentation of the arguments associated with God’s direction for man with regard to homosexuality. A few snipets were provided for why conservative theologians, ministers and Christians believe that the Bible declares homosexual behavior sinful. I have provided a few thoughts below; some better developed than others, but in no way comprehensive, nor held together in a regular flow. There isn’t time or space on a blog site. Complete texts and volumes have been written over the years. This is a complex issue and connected with several issues that are central to the church.
In many ways, one of the core issues at stake in the argument is whether the Bible is the inspired word of God or not. The Greek word that has been translated into English as inspired in I Timothy literally means “God-breathed.” The Senior Priest in the Falls Church Episcopal Church wrote a letter to the editor in the Washington Post outlining that as the key issue in the ongoing fight. The ordination of an actively practicing Homosexual was the final straw in a long standing battle over the authority of the scriptures, which has led to many Episcopal churches to separate themselves from the authority of the American Episcopal church to the Anglican church of Nigeria.
It seems to me that part of the vitriol from some members of the “church” relates to the way in which the public policy fight is taking place, to include in schools where children are taught sexual values which are contrary to a parent’s values. At times this has been accomplished in clandestine ways that raise anger in parents. In a related way, a legal guardian has to approve medical treatments for minors, yet there is this boundary set up that allows others to help a child get an abortion, which is a fairly significant procedure, after which several have died of various complications; it would seem that the person authorizing treatment ought to be held responsible for the decision. Bottom Line - There is a cultural war taking place in America and homosexuality is one of many issues. Rabbi Daniel Lapin, an Orthodox rabbi, outlines the ongoing cultural war quite effectively in his book, America’s Real War.
There has been excessive hatred spewed from many on each side of the issue, frequently based on second hand information. This hatred toward those practicing homosexuality is inappropriate for Christians, although I would argue some of the anger is appropriate (be angry but sin not).
Marc Collins (pt 2) said
ReplyDeleteSeveral times in the tape they made reference to homosexuality only being spoken out against in 6 places in the Bible. Interestingly, one of the theologians in speaking about the reason certain texts don’t exactly mean that God abhors homosexuality is that the author was speaking out against the ways of the Greeks and Romans, because homosexuality wasn’t practiced by Jews. As I thought about that statement, it seems to me that Jewish people must have taken God’s commands against it pretty seriously if essentially wasn’t found. In performing an electronic search of the Bible and my other reference books I found 7 different references (not counting Gen 2:24). It should be noted, that these are not isolated verses, but rather included as parts of significant passages. As an aside, there are several other sexual sins that the Bible cites. All sexual intercourse outside the bounds of a man and a woman in a marriage relationship is considered sinful. This has been ignored in the argument – I don’t know why; there is much said in the Bible about avoiding it. Sexual misconduct by many leaders within the church has compromised the voice of in some cases with regard to sexual sin. Additionally, according to scriptures all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. None can achieve reconciliation with God based on what we do.
There is research in the area regarding nature versus nurture. In general, it appears that the current view based on work done with twins points to born that way. Perhaps one day they will find a gene(s) that when present predicts with 100% confidence homosexuality; I wonder. I also noted with interest how lightly a psychologist discounted the lives of individuals who had changed from homosexual to heterosexual. She stated that they were suppressing their real nature. I know a few individuals who have changed their behavior. I cannot look into a their hearts , however, and know whether they have changed deep down inside or not. I am skeptical that a psychologist can look into the spirit and soul either. Science is based on research that looks at the physical world – it has no way to look at the spiritual world and is therefore blind to any changes that take place within the spirit of a person. Additionally, using their definition of change, why would we ever try to cure an alcoholic, since they will always be susceptible to a return to alcoholism?
Marc Collins (pt 3)
ReplyDeleteEven the issue of marriage is a complex one. There are three dates associated with my wedding; this came up during the adoption of my daughter. The first date was the wedding itself, the second was the date the license was filed and the third is the date it was recorded. In Soviet based countries that final date is the official date, because it reflects when the Government officially recognizes the relationship. On the other hand in America, the first date is the official date. The Government vests its authority in Rabbis, Priests, Pastors, etc. so that they the State and represent God in their religious capacity. I reflected on this issue, because it impacts the view of homosexual marriage. On the one hand there are certain issues associated with being married, property ownership, hospital visitation, and health insurance that have little to do with religion and are more based on civil rights as a citizen. There are other issues related to using a church or other religious based facility, recognition by the church etc. which are religious issues. In America, these get morphed into something that threatens churches in major ways. For instance, if approved as law, would it be a hate crime to declare homosexuality a sin from the pulpit? The Biblical view for marriage is first set forth in the book of Genesis, before the fall of mankind, “24 For this cause a man shall leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave to his wife; and they shall become one flesh. (NASB Genesis 2:24)”
I appreciated the look into the struggles of families associated with having a family member who is homosexual. There are so many different facets.
I enjoyed reading everyone's posts, but rather than respond I would like to put forth a different angle. I have frequently been confused by the position taken by a large portion of the gay community that sexuality is not a choice and therefore they should be given full rights and accepted in communities. I can see that is in reaction to many (mostly religious people) who say it is a choice and we can fix you. However I think that this "It's not a choice" line of argument is at best a stepping stone for the gay community. I would rather them say "We have a right to be who we are."
ReplyDeleteThe difficulty with the choice line of argument is that it relies upon science to hold it up. What happens when/if science starts leaning in the other direction. What is the gay community to do - work to suppress that science? What if science says that its definitely not a choice but we have finally figured out how to fix it. There would be tremendous pressure upon gays to undergo this "treatment".
I think that it is well accepted medical knowledge that the size of a woman's breasts is not her choice. Yet there are still tremendous messages that that is an inferior status for a woman, and that she can go under the knife (often with serious health consequences) to fix the problem.
Issues of our characteristics and how they arise is complex. I did some research into left handedness a few years back and found that many people may be left handed for different reasons. For example there appears to be a strong genetic component in the general public but this does not hold true with fraternal and identical twins. In twins there is a higher rate of one of them being left handed. In these cases, the position in the womb is thought to be responsible for the handedness.
The comparison of gayness to handedness is interesting. When I entered first grade, the teachers had just stopped trying to change left handers. Some of my friends have not been so lucky and they had their left hand tied behind their back (usually in Catholic schools). Because religion is a hobby of sorts for me, I have spoken to people of many faiths with many strong positions. I have spoken to literalists of all three monotheistic religions who have stated that the left hand is the hand of the devil and that the right hand is the hand of God.
So my point is this. Why don't we approach issues of variation in humans -size, skin tone, religion, ethnicity, intelligences and sexuality- from the perspective of human rights. Don't all humans have some rights - regardless of the reason for their variation - whether it be a product of creation, evolution, en utero environment, genetics, childhood experiences or choice? Can't we see the variation in humans (and in the larger portion of nature) as a beautiful reflection of a creator, of evolution, of nature itself, or as simply a mystery - or some combination of those.
I would like to share a story from my personal life - as I think it fits into this discussion/video experience.
ReplyDeleteI grew up in a small town, and my mom decided to take me to an even smaller community to attend middle school. The school was a K-8, and my grade level had a total of 30 students. Needless to say, everyone knew everyone else's business. Two teachers are this school were partners. They had been together for many years and had adopted two girls together. One of the women was my 7th grade teacher, and her partner was my softball coach for 6 years. They really cared about their students and they were two of the best teachers I ever had. My mom was close friends with them as I was attending that school. Around that same time frame, I overheard my mom talking to someone about how the possibility of gay rights/marriage would ruin marriage, society (etc.). My first thought was how could she say that knowing that her friends were gay? It seems that there was a huge disconnect for her in seeing two lesbians, her close friends -- and hearing about the gay rights movements in the media.
I wonder how many others are like this?
Also, I never understand why it matters what the bible says about anything. It's not a book I believe in, so why should I follow it's rules? (just throwing that out there, since much discussion is bible-based).
Here's my reaction:
ReplyDeleteI thoroughly enjoyed this documentary. It was really moving, and I'm glad that people are finally talking about it, logically, spriritually, etc. My stance: as a believer of God, I think of Him as the ultimate judge--not myself. Therefore, I place all judgments in His hands. I love everyone, and I feel that I can truly vouch for this through my daily example and conversations with all people (different skin color, sexual orientation, etc.). I think that if I were to take on that responsibility as "judge," life would be incredibly tense. Ick! I'm glad I can just live and love!
On the Bible:
ReplyDeleteGiven that the Old and New Testaments were written over many hundreds of years, in languages that we do not fully understand today, I find it difficult to believe that the Bible has survived to this day intact and completely understood. Instead, I believe that translation errors, transcription errors, insertions, deletions, doctrinal fillers, and external pressure have resulted in a Bible that is much different today than the original word. Also, given that the Church had a heavy hand in choosing which writings were included after the Torah, and which writings were considered, but not chosen, it is apparent that the hand of man has been heavy in constructing the Bible we know today.
So for me (and for me only) I believe the Bible when it says God is love and also says that God's love is unconditional. In addition, I find the words of Jesus very compelling when he stated (Matthew 22:38) that the first and greatest commandment is to "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul and all your mind" and the second is like unto it: "Love thy neighbor as thyself". Jesus goes on to say that the entire law and all the demands of the prophets are based on these two commandments.
As such, I find that my own individual interpretation of the Bible revolves around these ideas of love. Where the Bible diverges from these ideas, I am suspicious as to the origin of the writings.
So for me, I work very hard to follow those two commandments - and reject the notion that the Bible commands us to discriminate against and/or judge homosexuals.
On the video:
I appreciated that the video offers a different and more accepting take on homosexuality than what is typically presented.
I didn't know where to post this link... so I'm doing it here to further our discussion of Obama and the underlying tones of racism that exist... the article is titled: Why Obama doesn't dare become 'the angry black man': http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/06/08/rage.obama/index.html .
ReplyDeleteSwedish Men Can Have it All
ReplyDeletehttp://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/10/world/europe/10iht-sweden.html?scp=1&sq=swedish%20men&st=cse
Article on how male roles are viewed in Sweden.
Amnesty International's statement on human rights related to sexual orientation and gender identity.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.amnesty.org/en/sexual-orientation-and-gender-identity
Search under "homosexual" in the Amnesty site for various articles on laws and practices in different countries.